DN 23 : Payasi Sutta; Debate with a sceptic

Thus have i heard.

Once the Venerable Kumara- Kassapa was touring round Kosala with a 500 monks and he stayed at a town called Setavya in the Simsapa Forest. At that time Prince Payasi was living at Setavya, at a populous place, full of grass, timber, water and corn which had been given to him by King Pasenadi of Kosala as a royal gift and with royal powers.

Prince Payasi developed the following evil opinion: 'There is no other world, there are no spontaneously born beings, there is no fruit or result of good or evil deeds (No Kamma). Meanwhile, the Brahmins and householders of Setavya heard that the ascetic Kumara-Kassapa, a disciple of the ascetic Gotama is staying in the Simsapa Forest. They heard new that Venerable Kassapa  is learned, experienced, wise, well-informed, a fine speaker, able to give good replies, a venerable, an Arahant." They think that it is good to see arahants so the Brahmins and householders left in large numbers and made for the Simsapa Forest. 

At that time, Prince Payasi had gone up to the verandah for his midday rest when he saw all the Brahmins and house- holders making for the Simsapa Forest. He asked his steward why and the latter said: 'Sir, it is the ascetic Kumara- Kassapa, that they are going to see him. Prince Payasi  passed a message to the brahmins and house-holders to wait as he wanted to see the ascetic Kassapa too. Prince Payasi thought :' that ascetic Kumara-Kassapa has been teaching these foolish and inexperienced Brahmins and householders of Setavya that there is another world, that there are spontaneously born beings and that there is fruit and result of good and evil deeds (Kamma). But no such things exist.'

Then Prince Payasi, accompanied by the Brahmins and householders of Setavyii, went to the Simsapa Forest where the Venerable Kumara-Kassapa was. After exchanging courtesies with the Venerable Kumara Kassapa, the Prince Payasi sat down to one side while some of the Brahmins and householders sat down to one side. Then Price Payasi said to the Venerable Kumara-Kassapa: 'Reverend Kassapa, I hold strongly to this view: There is no other world, there are no spontaneously born beings, there is no fruit or result of good or evil deeds.'

Venerable Kassapa  replied: 'Well, Prince, I have never seen or heard of such a tenet or view as you declared. So Prince, I will question you about it and you shall reply as you think fit. What do you think, are the sun and the moon in this world or another, are they gods or humans?'
Prince Payasi: 'Reverend Kassapa, they are in another world, and they are gods, not humans.'
Venerable Kassapa: 'In the same way, Prince, you should consider that there is another world, there are spontaneously born beings, there is fruit and result of good and evil deeds.
Prince Payasi: 'Whatever you may say about that, Reverend Kassapa, I still think there is no other world.. .'
Venerable Kassapa :'Have you any reasons for this assertion, Prince?'
Prince Payasi: 'I have, Reverend Kassapa. I have friends, colleagues and relatives who take life, take what is not given, commit sexual offences, tell lies, use abusive, harsh and frivolous speech, who are greedy, full of hatred and hold wrong views. Eventually they become ill, suffered, diseased. When I am sure they will not recover, I go to them and say: "There are certain ascetics and Brahmins who declare and believe that those who take life, break precepts, hold wrong views will, after death at the breaking-up of the body, they are born in a state of woe, an evil place, a place of punishment, in hell. Now you have done these things and if what these ascetics and Brahmins say is true, that is where you will go. If after death, you go to a such a woeful state, come to me and declare that there is another world, there are spontaneously born beings, there is fruit and result of good and evil deeds. You, gentlemen, are trustworthy and dependable and what you have seen shall be as if I had seen it myself." Although they agreed, they neither came to tell me nor did they send a messenger. That is my reason for maintaining: "There is no other world, there are no spontaneously born beings, there is no fruit or result of good or evil deeds."'

Venerable Kassapa: 'As to that, Prince, I will question  and you shall reply as you think fit. What do you think, suppose they were to bring a thief before you caught in the act and say: "This man, Lord, is a thief caught in the act. Sentence him to any punishment you wish." Then you might say: "Bind this man's arms tightly behind him with a strong rope, shave his head and lead him through the streets and squares, out through the southern gate and there cut off his head." Now if that thief were to say to the executioners: "Good executioners, in this town or village I have friends, colleagues and relatives, can you wait wait till I have visit them." Would he get his wish? Or would they just cut off that talkative thief's head?

Prince Payasi: 'He would not get his wish, Reverend Kassapa. They would just cut off his head.'
Venerable Kassapa: 'So Prince, this thief could not get even his human executioners to wait while he visit his friends and relations for one last time. How so can your friends, colleagues and relatives who have committed all these misdeeds, having died and gone to a place of woe, prevail upon the warders of hell, saying: "Good warders of hell, please wait while we report to Prince Payasi that there is another world, there are spontaneously bom beings, and there is fruit and result of good and evil deeds"? Therefore, Prince, admit that there is another world, there are spontaneous beings and there is kamma.
Prince Payasi: 'Whatever you may say about that, Reverend Kassapa, I still think otherwise.'

Venerable Kassapa: 'Have you any reason for this assertion, Prince?'
Prince Payasi: 'I have friends who abstain from taking life, from taking what is not given, abstain from committing sexual offences, abstain from telling lies or using abusive, harsh and frivolous speech, they are not greedy or full of hatred and they have right views. Eventually they become ill and when I am sure they will not recover, I go to them and say: "There are certain ascetics and Brahmins who declare and believe that those who follow the precepts and have right views will, after death they will be born in a happy state, a heavenly world. Now you have refrained from doing these things,  if what these ascetics and Brahmins say is true, that is where you will go. If after death, you go to a happy state, a heavenly world, come to me and declare that there is another world, there is spontaneously born beings and there is kamma. " But although they agreed, they neither came to me nor did they send a messenger. That, Reverend Kassapa, is my reason for maintaining my view'.

Venerable Kassapa: 'Well then, Prince, I will give you a simile because some wise people understand what is said by means of  that. Suppose a man had fallen head first into a cesspit and you were to say to your men: "Pull that man out of the cesspit!" They would do so. Then you would tell them to clean his body thoroughly of the filth with bamboo scrapers and then to give him a triple yellow shampoo powder.  Then you would tell them to dress his hair and beard and to adorn him with fine garlands, ointments and clothes. Finally you would tell them to lead him up to your palace and let him indulge in the pleasures of the five senses, and they would do so. What do you think, Prince? Would that man, having been well washed, with his hair and beard dressed, adorned and garlanded, clothed in white, having been conveyed up to the palace, enjoying and revelling in the pleasures of the five senses, want to be plunged once more into that cesspit?'
Prince Payasi: 'No, Reverend Kassapa.'
Venerable Kassapa: 'Why not?'
Prince Payasi: 'Because that cesspit is dirty, evil- smelling, horrible, revolting and generally considered to be 
so.'
​
Venerable Kassapa: 'In just the same way, Prince, human beings are generally considered repulsive by the devas. So why should your friends who have not committed any of the offences and who have after death been born in a happy state, a heavenly world, come back and report to you that there is another world, there are spontaneously born beings and there is kamma? Therefore, Prince, admit that there is another world. . . '
Prince Payasi : 'Whatever you may say but i still hold to my view.'
Venerable Kassapa: 'Have you any reason for this assertion, Prince?' '
​Prince Payasi: 'I have friends who observe precepts, abstain from strong drink and sloth-inducing drugs. Eventually they become ill and i told them that if there were to be born in a happy state, in a heavenly world, as companions of the Thirty-Three Gods, they should report to me. But although they agreed, they neither came nor did they send a messenger. That's why i maintain my view. 

Venerable Kassapa: 'As to that, Prince, I will question you about it, and you shall answer as you think fit. A hundred human years is one day and night for the Thirty-Three Gods. Thirty of such nights make a month, twelve such months a year, and a thousand such years are the life-span of the Thirty-Three Gods. Now suppose they were to think: "After we have indulged in the pleasures of the five senses for two or three days we will go to Payasi and tell him there is another world, there are spontaneously born beings, there is fruit and result of good and evil deeds" Would they have done so?'
Prince Payasi: 'No, Reverend Kassapa, because we would be long dead. But who has told you that the Thirty-Three Gods exist, and that they are so long-lived? I don't believe the 33 Gods exist or are so long- lived.'
Venerable Kassapa: 'Prince, imagine a man who was blind from birth and could not see dark or light objects, or colors, could not see the stars and the moon. He might say: "There are no dark and light objects ,there is no sun or moon and nobody who can see them. I am not aware of this thing and therefore it does not exist." Would he be speaking rightly, Prince?'
Prince Payasi: 'No, Reverend Kassapa. There are dark and light objects, there is a sun and a moon and anyone who said: "I am not aware of this thing, I cannot see it, and therefore it does not exist" would not be speaking rightly.' Venerable Kassapa: 'Well, Prince, it appears that your reply is like that of the blind man when you ask how I know about the Thirty-Three Gods and their longevity. Prince, the other world cannot be seen the way you think, with the physical eye. Prince, those ascetics and Brahmins who seek in the  forest for a resting-place that is quiet, secluded, they stay there unwearied, ardent, restrained, purifying the divine eye. With that purified divine eye that exceeds the powers of human sight, they see both this world and the next, and spontaneously born beings. That, Prince, is how the other world can be seen and not the way you think, with the physical eye. Therefore Prince, admit that there is another world, that there are spontaneously born beings, and that there is fruit and result of good and evil deeds.'
Prince Payasi: 'Whatever you may say about that but i hold on to my view.

Venerable Kassapa :'Have you any reason for this assertion, Prince? 
Prince Payasi :'I have seen here some ascetics and Brahmins ​ who observe morality and are well-conducted, who want to live, do not want to die, who desire comfort and hate suffering. It seems to me that if these good ascetics and Brahmins who are so moral and well-conducted know that after death they will be better off than those who would take poison and commit suicide. But though they have such knowledge, they still want to live, do not want to die, they desire comfort and hate suffering. And that, Reverend Kassapa, is my reason for maintaining my view. '
Venerable Kassapa: 'Well  Prince, I will give you a simile. Once a certain Brahmin had two wives. One had a son about ten years old, while the other was pregnant and nearing her delivery time when the Brahmin died. Then this youth said to his mother's co-wife: "Lady, whatever wealth and possessions, silver or gold, will all be mine. My father made me his heir." The Brahmin lady said to the youth: "Wait, young man, until I give birth. If the child is a boy, one portion will be his, and if it is a girl, she will become your servant." The youth repeated his words a second time and she gave the same reply. When he repeated a third time, the lady took a knife and cut open her belly thinking: "If only I could find out whether it is a boy or a girl!" And thus she killed herself and the living embryo and the wealth as well, just as fools do who seek their inheritance unwisely, heedless of hidden danger. In the same way you, Prince, will foolishly enter on hidden dangers by unwisely seeking for another  world, just as that Brahmin lady did in seeking her inheritance. But Prince, those ascetics and Brahmins who observe morality and are well-conducted do not seek to hasten the ripening of  what is not yet ripe, but rather they wisely await its ripening. Their life is profitable to those ascetics and Brahmins, for the longer such moral and well-conducted ascetics and Brahmins remain alive, the greater the merit that they create; they practice for the welfare of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the profit and benefit of devas and humans. Therefore, Prince, admit that there is another world, there are spontaneously born beings and there is kamma.'

​Prince Payasi: 'Whatever you may but i still disagree.'
Venerable Kassapa: 'Have you any reason for this assertion, Prince?'
Prince Payasi: 'Take the case that they bring a thief before me who was caught in the act and they asked me to sentence him. And I say: "Take this man and put him alive in a jar. Seal the mouth and close it with a damp skin, give it a thick covering of damp clay,put it in an oven and light the fire." When we are sure the man is dead, we remove the jar, break the clay, uncover the mouth and watch carefully; Maybe we can see his soul escaping. But we do not see any soul escaping. Since there is no soul, I believe there is no other world, no spontaneously born beings and no kamma. '
Venerable Kassapa: 'As to that, Prince, I will question you about it and you shall reply as you think fit. Do you admit that when you have gone for your midday rest you have seen pleasant visions of parks, forests, delightful country and lotus-ponds?'
Prince Payasi: 'I do, Reverend Kassapa.'
Venerable Kassapa: 'At that time are you not watched over by hunchbacks, dwarfs, young girls and maidens?'
Prince Payasi: 'I am, Reverend Kassapa.'
Venerable Kassapa: 'Do they observe your soul entering or leaving your body?'
Prince Payasi: 'No, Reverend Kassapa.'
Venerable Kassapa: 'So they do not see your soul entering or leaving your body even when you are alive. Therefore how could you see the soul of a dead man entering or leaving his body? Therefore, Prince, admit that there is another world, there is spontaneously born beings and kamma. '

Prince Payasi: 'Whatever you may, I still don't agree with you'
Venerable Kassapa: 'Have you any reason for this assertion, Prince?'
Prince Payasi: Take the case that they bring a thief before me and I say: "Weigh this man on the scales alive, then strangle him, and weigh him again." They did so and we found that when he was alive, he was lighter, softer and more flexible, but when he was dead he was heavier, stiffer and more inflexible. That is my reason for maintaining that there is no other world. . . '
Venerable Kassapa: 'Well then, Prince, I will give you a simile. Suppose a man weighed an iron ball that had been heated all day, blazing fiercely and glowing. Then suppose that after a time, when it had grown cold and gone out, he weighed it again. At which time would it be lighter, softer and more flexible: when it was hot or when it was cold and extinguished?'
Prince Payasi: 'Reverend Kassapa, when that ball of iron is hot and glowing with the elements of fire and air, then it is lighter, softer and more flexible. When it has grown cold, it is heavier, stiffer and more inflexible.'
Venerable Kassapa: 'Well then, Prince, it is just the same with the body. When it has life, heat and consciousness, it is lighter, softer and more flexible. But when it is deprived of life, heat and consciousness, it is heavier, stiffer and more inflexible. In the same way, Prince, you should consider: "There is another world. . . " 
Prince Payasi: 'Whatever you may say about that, i still disagree.'

Venerable Kassapa: 'Have you any reason for this assertion, Prince?'
Prince Payasi: 'Take the case of a thief that they bring before me and I say: "Kill this man without wounding his cuticle, skin, flesh, sinews, bones or marrow" and they do so. When he is half-dead, I say: "Now lay this man on his back and perhaps we shall be able to see his soul emerging." They do so but we cannot see his soul emerging. Then I say: 'Turn him face downwards,on his sides, stand him up, thump him with your fists, stone him, hit him with sticks, strike him with swords, shake him this way and that and perhaps we shall be able to see his soul emerging." They did that but although he has eyes he does not perceive objects, although he has ears he does not hear sounds, although he has a nose he does not smell smells, although he has a tongue he does not taste tastes, although he has a body he does not feel tangibles or their spheres. That is why I believe there is no other world. . . ' 
​Venerable Kassapa: 'Well then, Prince, I will give you a simile. Once there was a trumpeter who took his trumpet and went into the border country.Upon coming to a village, he stood in the village center, blew his trumpet three times before putting it down on the ground and sat down to one side. Then those folks thought: "Where does that delightful, compelling and captivating sound come from? " They asked the trumpeter and he replied :"Friends, this trumpet is where those delightful sounds come from." Then they laid the trumpet on its back, crying: "Speak, mister trumpet, speak!" But the trumpet never uttered a sound. Then they turned it face downwards, on its sides, stood it up, thumped it with their fists, stoned it, beat it with sticks, struck it with swords, shook it this way and that, crying: "Speak, mister trumpet, speak!" But the trumpet never uttered a sound. The trumpeter thought: "What fools these folks are! How stupidly they search for the sound of the trumpet!"As they watched him, the trumpeter took the trumpet, blew it three times and went away. And those folks thought: "It seems that when the trumpet is accompanied by a man, by effort and by the wind, then it makes a sound. But when it is not accompanied by a man, by effort, and by the wind, then it makes no sound." In the same way Prince, when this body has life, heat and consciousness, then it goes and comes back, stands and sits and lies down, sees things with its eyes, hears with its ears, smells with its nose, tastes with its tongue, feels with its body, and knows mental objects with its mind. But when it has no life, heat or consciousness, it does none of these things. In the same way, Prince, you should consider: 'There is another world.. ."

Prince Payasi: 'Whatever you may say , i still disagree.'
Venerable Kassapa: 'Have you any reason for this assertion, Prince?'
Prince Payasi:' Take the case of a thief they bring before me and I say: "Strip away this man's outer skin, and perhaps we shall be able to see his sole emerging." Then I tell them to strip away his inner skin, his flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow but still we cannot see any soul emerging. That's why i don't believe in another world, in spontaneously born beings and kamma '

Venerable Kassapa: 'Well then, Prince, I will give you a simile. Once there was a matted-haired fire-worshiper who dwelt in the forest in a leaf-hut. A certain tribe was on the move and its leader stayed for one night near the fire-worshiper's dwelling. So the fire-worshiper thought he would go to the site to see if he could find anything he could make use of after the leader left. He got up early and there he saw a tiny delicate baby boy lying abandoned on his back. At the sight he thought: "It would not be right for me to look on and let a human being die. I had better take this child to my hermitage, take care of him, feed him and bring him up." When the boy was about 10, the hermit had some business to do in the neighborhood so he told the boy to look after the fire and don't let it go out. If it should go out, use fire sticks to relight the fire. Having thus instructed the boy, the hermit went into the neighborhood. But the boy was absorbed in his games and let the fire go out. He tried to chop up the fire-sticks with the axe but he got no fire. He cut the fire-sticks into two, into three, into four, into five, ten, a hundred pieces, he splintered them, he pounded them in a mortar, he winnowed them in a great wind, thinking but he got no fire. When the hermit came back after he finished his business, he asked: "Son, why have you let the fire go out?" and the boy told him what had happened. The hermit thought: "How stupid and senseless this boy is? What a thoughtless way to try to get a fire!" So, while the boy looked on how his father rekindled the fire. The hermit said: "Son, that's the way to rekindle a fire, not the stupid, senseless, thoughtless way you tried to do it!" 'In just the same way, Prince, you are looking foolishly, senselessly and unreasonably for another world. Prince, give up this evil viewpoint! Do not let it cause you misfortune and suffering for a long time!'

Prince Payasi: 'Even though you say this, i still disagree with you. King Pasenadi of Kosala knows my opinions and so do kings abroad. If I give it up, they will say: "What a fool Prince Payasi is, how stupidly he grasps at wrong views!" Thus I will stick to this view out of anger, contempt and spite!'
Venerable Kassapa: 'Well then, Prince, I will give you a simile. Once Prince, a great caravan of a 1000 carts was travelling from east to west. Wherever they went, they rapidly consumed all the grass and wood. This caravan had two leaders, each one in charge of 500 carts. They thought: 'This is a great caravan of a 1000 carts. Wherever we go we use up all the supplies. Perhaps we should divide the caravan into two groups of 500 carts each.' Then one of the leaders collected plenty of grass, wood and water and set off. After 2-3 days' journey he saw a dark red-eyed man approaching him wearing a quiver and a wreath of white water-lilies, with his clothes and hair all wet, driving a donkey-chariot whose wheels were splashed with mud. Upon seeing this man, the leader said: "Where do you come from and where are you going? Has there been much rainfall in the jungle ahead?" The man replied :"Oh yes, sir, there has been a great deal of rain in the jungle ahead of you, the roads are well watered and there is plenty of grass, wood and water. Throw away the grass, wood and water you have already got then you will make rapid progress with lightly-laden carts, so do not tire your oxen!"

The caravan-leader did so and he dumped all his supplies. But at the first camping-place they did not find any grass, wood or water, nor at the second, the third, fourth, fifth, sixth or seventh and thus they all came to ruin and destruction. Whatever there was of them, men and cattle, they were all gobbled up by that yakkha- spirit and only their bones remained. When the leader of the second caravan was sure that the first caravan had gone forward far enough so he stocked up with plenty of grass, wood and water. After 2-3 days' journey this leader saw the same dark red-eyed man approaching him and the latter advised him to throw away his stocks of grass, wood and water. However this second leader said to the carters: "This man told us that we should throw away the grass, wood and water. But he is not one of our friends and relatives, so why should we trust him? So do not throw away the supplies we have and let's move on." The carters agreed and did as he said. At the first camping-place they did not find any grass, wood or water, nor at the second, the third, fourth, fifth, sixth or seventh, but there they saw the other caravan that had come to ruin and destruction and they saw the bones of those men and cattle that had been gobbled up by the yakkha-spirit. Then the caravan leader said to the carters: "That caravan came to ruin and destruction through the folly of its leader. So now let us leave behind such of our goods as are of little value, and take whatever is of greater value from the other caravan." That wise leader led them passed safely through the jungle. '

Venerable Kassapa:'In the same way you, Prince, will come to ruin and destruction if you foolishly and unwisely seek the other world in the wrong way. Those who think they can trust anything they hear are heading for ruin and destruction just like those carters of the first leader. Prince, give up this evil viewpoint, give it up! Do not let it cause you misfortune and suffering for a long time!'
Prince Payasi: 'Even though you say this, i will stick to my this evil opinion. If I give it up, they will say: "What a fool Prince Payasi is"'
Venerable Kassapa: 'Well then, Prince, I will give you a simile. Once there was a swineherd who was going from his own village to another. There he saw a heap of dry dung that had been thrown away and he thought: "There's a lot of dry dung somebody's thrown away, that would be food for my pigs. He spread out his cloak, gathered up the dung in it, made it into a bundle and put it on his head, and went on. But on his way back there was a heavy shower of unseasonable rain, was drenched but he still carried his load of dung. Those who saw him said: "You must be mad! You must be crazy! Why do you go  carry that load of dung that's oozing and dripping all over you down to your finger-tips?" The swineherd replied:  "You're the ones that are mad and crazy! This stuff is food for my pigs." Prince, you speak just like the dung-carrier in my simile so you should give up this evil viewpoint! Do not let it cause you misfortune and suffering for a long time!'
Prince Payasi: 'Even though you say this,  i still hold on to my view. If I give it up, they will say i am a fool.'

Venerable Kassapa: 'Well then, Prince, I will give you a simile. Once there were two gamblers using nuts as dice. One of them, whenever he got the unlucky dice, he swallowed it. The other noticed what he was doing and said: "Well, my friend, you're the winner! Give me the dice and I will make an offering of them."The first man agreed and gave the dice to him. Then the other man filled the dice with poison and  said: "Come on, let's have a game!" The other agreed, they played again, and once again the first player swallowed the unlucky dice. The second man watched him do so, and then uttered this verse: 
"The dice is smeared with burning stuff and the swallower doesn't know. Swallow, you cheat." 
Prince, you speak just like the gambler in my simile. Prince, give up this evil viewpoint, give it up! Do not let it cause you misfortune and suffering for a long time!'
Prince Payasi: 'Even though you say this,  I cannot bear to give up this evil opinion as they will call me a fool if i do. "

Venerable Kassapa: 'Well then, Prince, I will give you a simile. Once the inhabitants of a certain neighborhood migrated. One man said to his friend: "Come along, let's go to that neighborhood, we might find something valuable!" His friend agreed, so they went to that district and came to a village street. There they saw a pile of hemp that had been thrown away and decided to take a bundle each. Then, coming to another village street, they found some hemp-thread and one said: "This pile of hemp-thread is just what we wanted the hemp for. Let's each throw away our bundle of hemp and we'll take a load of hemp-thread each instead." One of them said: "But i've brought this bundle of hemp a long way and it's well tied up. That will do for me, you do as you like!" So his companion threw away the hemp and took the hemp-thread. They came to another village street, they found some hemp-cloth, and one said: "This pile of hemp-cloth is just what we wanted the hemp or hemp-thread for. You throw away your load of hemp and I'll throw away my load of hemp-thread, then we'll go on with a load of hemp-cloth each." But the other replied as before that he will keep the hemp whereas the companion threw away the hemp-thread and took the hemp-cloth. In another village they saw a pile of flax, in another village they saw linen-thread, in another village they saw linen-cloth, in another village they saw cotton, in another village they saw cotton- thread, in another village they saw cotton-cloth, in another village iron, in another village copper, in another village tin, in another village lead, in another silver, in another gold. Then one said: "This pile of gold is just what we wanted the hemp, hemp-thread, hemp- cloth, flax, linen-thread, linen-cloth, cotton, cotton-thread, cotton-cloth, iron, copper, tin, lead, silver for. You throw away your load of hemp and I'll throw away my load of silver, then we'll both go on with a load of gold each." However one of  them said :"I've brought this load of hemp a long way and it's well tied up. That will do for me, you do as you like!" So his companion threw away the load of silver and took the load of gold. When they came back to their own village. The one who brought a load of hemp gave no pleasure to his parents, nor to his wife and children, nor to his friends and colleagues and he did not even get any joy or happiness from it himself too. But the one who came back with a load of gold pleased his parents, his wife and children, his friends and colleagues, and he derived joy and happiness from it himself as well. '

Venerable Kassapa: 'Prince, you speak just like the hemp-bearer in my simile so give up this evil view. Do not let it cause you misfortune and suffering for a long time!'
Prince Payasi: 'I was pleased and delighted with the Reverend Kassapa's first simile and I wanted to hear his quick-witted replies to questions, because I thought he was a worthy opponent. Excellent, Reverend Kassapa, excellent! It is as if someone were to set up what had been knocked down, or to point out the way to one who had got lost, or to bring an oil-lamp into a dark place, so that those with eyes could see what was there. Just so has the Reverend Kassapa expounded the Dhamma in various ways. I will go to the Blessed Lord, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha for refuge. May the Reverend Kassapa accept me from this day forth as a lay- follower as long as life shall last! Reverend Kassapa, I want to make a great sacrifice, instruct me how this may be to my lasting benefit and happiness.'

Venerable Kassapa: 'Prince, when a sacrifice is made at which oxen are slain, or goats, fowl or pigs, or various creatures are slaughtered; the participants of such a sacrifice have wrong views, wrong thoughts, wrong speech, wrong actions, wrong livelihoods, wrong efforts, wrong mindfulness and wrong concentration. That sacrifice is of no great fruit or profit, it is not very brilliant and has no great radiance. Suppose Prince, a farmer went into the forest to plant. There, in a place with poor soil from which the stumps had not been uprooted, if he were to sow seeds that were broken, rotting, ruined by wind and heat, stale, and not properly embedded in the soil, and the rain-god did not send proper showers at the right time. Would those seeds germinate, develop and increase, and would the farmer get an abundant crop?'
Prince Payasi: 'No, Reverend Kassapa.'
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Venerable Kassapa: 'Well then, Prince, it is the same with a sacrifice at which animals were slaughtered, where the participants have wrong views, . . .wrong concentration. But when none of these animals were slaughtered and the participants have right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration (noble eightfold path), then that sacrifice is of great fruit and profit, it is brilliant and of great radiance. Suppose, Prince, a farmer went into the forest with ​plough and seed, and there was a place with good soil from which the stumps had been uprooted, if he were to sow seeds that were not broken, rotting, ruined by wind and heat, or stale, and were firmly embedded in the soil, and the rain-god were to send proper showers at the right time. Would those seeds germinate, develop and increase, and would the farmer get an abundant crop?'
Prince Payasi: 'He would, Reverend Kasapa.'
Venerable Kassapa: 'In the same way, Prince, at a sacrifice at which no animals are slain and where the participants have right view,. . .right concentration, then that sacrifice is of great fruit and profit, it is brilliant and of great radiance.'

Then Prince Payasi established a charity for ascetics and Brahmins, wayfarers, beggars and the needy. But food was given out as broken rice with sour gruel, and also rough clothing with ball-fringes. At that time a young Brahmin called Uttara was put in charge of the distribution. In context with the charity, Uttara said: 'Through this charity I have been associated with Prince Payasi in this world, but not in the next.' Prince Payasi heard of his words and asked him why he had said that
Prince Payasi: 'Friend Uttara, don't we who wish to gain merit expect a reward for our charity?'
Uttara: 'But, Lord, the food you give were broken rice with sour gruel which you wouldn't even touch it with your foot, much less eat it! And the rough clothes with ball-fringes you gave away, you would not care to set foot on them, much less wear them! Lord, you are kind and gentle to us, so how can we reconcile such kindness and gentleness with unkindness and roughness? '
Prince Payasi: 'Well then, Uttara, you arrange to supply food as I eat and clothes such as I wear.' Uttara did so.As Prince Payasi had established his charity grudgingly, not with his own hands, and without proper concern, like something casually tossed aside, he was reborn after his death in the company of the Four Great Kings, in the empty Serisaka mansion. Whereas Uttara, who had given the charity un-grudgingly, with his own hands and with proper concern, not as something tossed aside, was reborn after death in a good place, a heavenly realm, in the company of the Thirty-Three Gods.

Now at that time the Venerable Gavampati was accustomed to go to the empty Serisaka mansion for his midday rest. Payasi of the devas went to the Venerable Gavampati, saluted him, and stood to one side.
Venerable Gavampati asked: 'Who are you, friend?'
Payasi: 'Lord, I am Prince Payasi.'
Venerable Gavampati: 'Friend, are you not the one who used to say: "There is no other world, there are no spontaneously born beings, there is no fruit or result of good or evil deeds"?'
Payasi: 'Yes, Lord, I am the one who used to say that but I was converted from that evil view by the Noble Kumara- Kassapa.'
Venerable Gavampati: 'Where has the young Brahmin Uttara, who was in charge of the distribution of your charity, been reborn?'
Payasi: 'Lord, he who gave the charity ungrudgingly, was reborn in the company of the Thirty-Three Gods, but I, who gave grudgingly, have been reborn here in the empty Serisaka mansion. Lord, please, when you return to earth, tell the people to give ungrudgingly and inform them of the way in which Prince Payasi and the young Brahmin Uttara have been re- born.'

So Venerable Gavampati, on his return to earth, declared: 'You should give ungrudgingly, with your own hands, with right intention and not carelessly. Prince Payasi did not do this hence after death he was reborn in the company of the Four Great Kings in the empty Serisaka mansion, whereas the administrator of his charity, the young Brahmin Uttara, who gave ungrudgingly, with his own hands, with right intention and not carelessly, was reborn in the company of the Thirty-Three Gods.' 

In summary, Prince payasi has the wrong view that there is no other world other than the human realm. He also does not believe in spontaneously born beings in the formless realm and in woeful states. He also doesn't believe in the cause and effect theory of kamma. 

He challenged Venerable Kassapa his views. Venerable Kassapa had kindly used Q&A method and giving similes to make Prince Payasi know that his views were wrong. Prince Payasi was very stubborn but finally was convinced in the end. 

​By WHH

​References: 
1. www.accesstoinsight.org
2. https://suttacentral.net/
3. The long discourses of the Buddha (Bhikkhu Bodhi)